A short version of my Complaint went to Yukon Outfitters Association in January of 2008
I do not have a copy
-----Original Message-----
From: terry
Sent: February 5, 2008 10:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Delivery Failure
Hi, I'm glad we got through. I am the Yukon Outfitter in charge of the greviance committee. The proces is we need the complaint in writting, an email to me is fine, Ithen will pass it on to the outfitter. If nothing comes from that in a short while you write me again and I pick another outfitter and a member of out game branch and sit down with you and if I remember correctly Darwin and see what happens, This can all be done with a conference call if necessary.
Hopefully we can get this put away as quickly as possible. Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 5, 2008 2:34 PM
To: terry
Subject: complaint with Darwin Watson
Dear Terry Thank-you for your email. I will mail you a copy of all the correspondence I have between my booking agent, Jason Dyck, and Darwin Watson. We've tried to resolve this situation with Darwin only to be called a "whiner and sniveller". I'll include other information as well as a copy of our contract. At our next step (conference call), I'll be asking Darwin for a full refund ($12,075.00). I will use this money for a partial payment as I will have additional expenses to try to achieve what I started to do; get a moose hunting trip of a lifetime. N.B. We will be away on Holidays from February 10 - 26.Sincerely,
JP Gosselin
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 9, 2008 12:49 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; Joel N. Gosselin; bertrobidoux; [email protected]
Subject: Yukon Trip
Dear Terry
I've hunted moose in Manitoba for 27 years and Yukon was to be my dream hunt. Moose was all I wanted to hunt. Early in the week my guide thought we were in a not too productive area. I agreed with him. Reasons: not many fresh tracks, few beds, no wallows, no scrapes, no rubs, no bull sightings.
We did our best and covered a lot of ground looking for activity. My guide was a good hunter but didn't know the area. It was his first time at Moss Lake and the Yukon. I know from my experience, knowing the area makes a big difference. In fact when Darwin came to try to fix our boat motor, he said he saw 2 60"+ bulls 2 lakes east of us and when we went there the next day, it was 6 PM by the time we found the lake. Had we found the lake sooner, we could have possibly stalked those 2 bulls across the lake instead of attempting shots at 510 yards. My guide should have known there was an easy way around the lake. Not knowing this, cost us a lot of time.
I kept a diary of the animals we saw every day by flashlight in the tent at night. We saw a total of 4 cows and 2 calves on our lake the whole week. This is not a hunt of a lifetime as promised on the website. This is not the expectations I had. I thought we would see bulls every day. Is it possible I was put on that lake because it was close to McNeil Lake where my brother was? It certainly was an easier choice given the fact there was a boat there already. A month or so after the hunt, my guide was telling me they have plans of taking the boat out of Moss Lake. I don't think they would do this if this was such a great lake. Was the rut even started? We were told it was, but in Whitehorse everybody we talked to said we were too early. When booking our trip we told Darwin we were available on any date and wanted the dates that would give us the best chance at the biggest bulls. When I got to Moss Lake at about 7 PM, my guide was still setting up camp. He had only been there 2 hours prior to our arrival. Even with my help it took a long time and it was dark when we stopped for the night. The next morning we had to drag the boat to the lake and install the motor. Since the supplied ladder was broken, we had to build one in order to get the stored gasoline out of the trees. We have no idea how long that gas was sitting there. The food was stored outside the tent door in cardboard boxes. No coolers or wooden boxes were supplied and we were in grizzly country. The Coleman lantern had one mantle partly broken off but with no spare mantles, we had to use it like that all week. The Coleman stove was not only old but it was also dangerous. It would flair up once in a while. Our table was nailed between 2 trees, we were concerned the stove might set fire to the trees. The boat motor was a constant thorn in our side. The first day it would spit gas out of the carb and flood itself. The rest of the week it would be hard to start. We couldn't hardly get any speed out of it. It would stall when we tried to increase the speed. Then it had to be cranked for 10 minutes or longer for it to start again. The guide phoned Darwin for new gasoline, new motor and tools. All we got was gasoline. It took us a long time to get to the other end of the lake and back. That got us back to camp late at night with a late supper before bed. My contract with Yukon Stone Outfitters Limited stipulates that my hunt was to end September 14, 2007. This is the day we flew out. If this is a 9-day hunt as mentioned on the website, I'm short one day as we did not hunt on the 14th. Upon arrival at the airport, we were never greeted by anyone or given instructions. We had no idea where to go. After making several phone calls trying to find where we were booked, we gave up and ended up finding a room ourselves. In my brother Joel's email (Notes to Jason), he commented that the sheep leg lost it's "bonus appeal"after being in a boat with a bad motor for 3 days. This was misinterpreted by Jason Dyck, my booking agent, thinking we had a lack of food. I would like to clarify. The food was simple at best but plentiful. I apologize for this misunderstanding. I tipped my guide for the huge effort he made trying to find my giant bull. I hope you don't take this is as a sign of a satisfied hunter.
As promised on the website (http://www.yukonstone.com/Location.php), the Base Camp at McNeil Lake where my brother Joel was, had no hot showers, no small generator and no cook. I had a spike camp so did not get any of these amenities nor did I expect to.
Unfulfilled Promises:
“Our base camps, though rustic, will be comfortable with hot showers, small generators and good cooks. For your trip of a lifetime, come join us in the fabulous YUKON.”http://www.yukonstone.com/Location.php
“we intend to develop this concession into the Number one destination in the Yukon. We intend to do this with service and quality products.” http://www.yukonstone.com/ContactUs.php
“This will not be a big business, but will be a dedicated professional family group that will give you a Yukon Hunt of a Lifetime!” http://www.yukonstone.com/ContactUs.php
Above Quotes taken from website.
Responses to Darwin's Comments (see attached letter):
Darwin's Comment: “A boat, a lake, a shoreline are not hard to hunt for experienced guides.”
My Response: We never saw ANY bulls on our lake.
Darwin's Comment on the boat motor: “However it did run at all times.”
My Response: Our motor did NOT run at all times and when it did, it ran extremely poorly. We had long periods of frustration, anger, quiet moments and stress. The guide requested a new motor on the first night. We never did get one.
Darwin's Comment: “The motor would only run at half speed however running at full speed on a 4 mile long lake really not required.”
My Response: When it ran, it ran at a little better than trolling speed. I was always afraid it wouldn't start at all and we'd have to paddle back to camp. This was not what I paid for.
Darwin's Comment on not being at the airport or having a room booked: “We did not receive confirmation of their travel plans prior to our departure for the bush in July, hence the booking on the 6th.”
My Response: Email dated June 19, 2007 10:01 AM gives our complete flight plans with arrival dates with a specific request to book our rooms. Copy of email enclosed.
Darwin's Comment on flying us in one day early: “The camp was set up and the client came in a day early. I apologize. I should have sent him in a day late.”
My Response: The camp was not completely set up. The guide had only been there a few hours before setting up. I helped him out once I got there. Contract states hunt to begin September 7, 2007. He flew us in at 7PM on September 6, 2007. Add 6 hours flight restriction (Yukon law), he had to fly me in on the 6th to honour his contract.
Darwin's Comment: “JP forgot to mention he missed a 60” bull.”
My Response: 510 yards across a lake is hardly considered a good opportunity. This bull was on another lake a mile and a half from ours.
Darwin's Comment: “Perhaps they forgot to mention that Joel turned down a trophy bull early in the hunt and killed a smaller bull with 2 days to go?”
My Response: Joel saw only 2 bulls all week; the first one was a small bull. His guide didn't see the antlers because the bull was behind a tree. There was never any question of shooting and he doesn't know at what point Darwin considered this a trophy moose. The second moose he saw, he shot. It was a 50.5 inch.
Darwin's Comment: “The pilot or manager are always available to call taxi or take the client downtown.”
My Response: Is that why we stood around in the cold for approximately 20 minutes looking down at our boots till finally the pilot said he'd give us a ride. If it was his job, someone should have told him.
Darwin's Comment: “Took them a new motor as soon as I received the call.”
My Response: Joel at McNeil Lake got a new motor. We did not receive any new motor at our lake. He came the day after we phoned and tried unsuccessfully to fix the motor. He knew it wasn't working good and chose to do nothing more about it for the entire time I was there.
Darwin's Comment: “There were tools, obviously not the one the client wanted.”
My Response: The only tool we had at Moss Lake was the chainsaw spark plug wrench with a flat screw driver on the shaft.
Darwin's Comment: “Both clients had good opportunity at trophy animals. This is what I agreed to provide.”
My Response: He did NOT provide this.
In conclusion, I apologize for such a long letter but felt it necessary to bring all these points out. The lack of game is my biggest complaint. I know hunting is not a guaranteed sport but I'm not a rookie. Darwin was not ready for me with little or no planning, no scouting, with questionable equipment. He put my guide on a plane with food and sent him to McNeil Lake to pick up whatever he could find and dumped him on a lake close by where there was a boat. He did not have time to scout as he was busy setting up camp. Our chances of success before starting was next to nil. Do all outfitters in the Yukon operate this way?
Thank-you,
JP Gosselin
-----Original Message-----
From: terry [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 10, 2008 11:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: re: Yukon Trip
Hi, Thank you for your notes. I will be forwarding this to Darwin as per my last email and see what happens. Sorry for the slow reponse but our computor got stole while we were on holiday so will be back to Watson next week and try to get this cleanned up. Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Yukon Outfitters [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 12, 2008 11:24 AM
To: 'Debonair Campground'
Cc: Terry; Alan & Mary Ellen Young
Subject: RE: Yukon Trip
Dear JP Gosselin,
Thank you for your written comments regarding your Yukon hunt. I will follow up on this issue with the Grievance Committee and will get back to you soon.
Sincerely,
Johanne Koser
Office Administrator
-----Original Message-----
From: terry
Sent: February 17, 2008 3:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: fw: Yukon Trip
Hi Darwin, As the person in charge of the Yukon Outfitters ethics committee I have received the following complaint. The process is that when I receive a complaint in writing I then forward it to the outfitter. If the two parties are unable to work out the problem in about a month I then call a meeting with another outfitter, a member of the game branch and myself as a panel. We then normally do a conference call with you and Mr Gosselin and come up with a reccomendation. Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: terry
Sent: March 21, 2008 11:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: re: Yukon Trip
Hi J.P., I just got back and am wondering if you have heard from Darwin. The month is close if not already up. Terry
From: "Debonair Campground" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 4:07 PM
To: terry
Subject: RE: Yukon Trip
No I haven't heard from Darwin. Let's move this forward. Is a conference call necessary with Darwin? I doubt he will participate in a civil manner. According to Yukon Stone Outfitters website, Mac Watson holds the Outfitter License. Should we be dealing with him? Please keep me informed. Thanks, JP Gosselin
-----Original Message-----
From: terry Sent: March 22, 2008 6:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Yukon Trip
Hi, The legal way I beleive would be to deal with Mac as he is the licence holder.
I will be gone all next week, should be back by Monday. I will at that time get started trying to get a working date for all parties. Terry
Letter Received from Yukon Outfitters’ Association
JP Gosselin
Debonair Campground
Box 68
St. Malo, MB
October 17, 2008
Dear Mr. JP Gosselin,
I am writing in response to your concerns about your hunt with Yukon Stone Outfitters. I have contacted the Chair of the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee and he informed me that he had some preliminary discussions with you, and although a formal review was not done, he was under the impression that the matter has been resolved. Judging by your continued correspondence, he must be mistaken. Do you wish to have the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee conduct a formal hearing? If you consent, both parties must agree that the results will be binding and that all matters discussed shall remain confidential and cannot be used in further actions.
I look forward to hearing from you regarding this matter.
Sincerely,
Tim Mervyn
President, Yukon Outfitters’ Association
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: October 18, 2008 11:33 AM
To: Yukon Outfitters
Cc: 'Terry and Ruth Wilkinson'; [email protected]; 'Dickson Outfitters Ltd.'; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; 'Pierre.Germain'; [email protected]; 'Mervyn's Yukon Outfitting'; [email protected]; Joel N. Gosselin
Subject: RE: Yukon Stone hunt
Dr. Mr. Tim Mervyn Thanks for your letter sent by email on October 17, 2008 and for acknowledging my complaint with Yukon Stone Outfitters. All I wanted right from the beginning was a Yukon Moose Hunt of a Lifetime as promised. I do not understand at what point Terry thought the matter had been resolved. The last time I heard from Terry was through his email dated March 22, 2008.
Letter Received from Yukon Outfitters' Association
JP Gosselin
Debonair Campground
Box 68
St. Malo, MB
October 21, 2008
Dear Mr. Gosselin,
Thank you for your email reply of October 18, 2008. As you know, I can not begin to judge the outcome of the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee hearing. Members of the hearing will consist of other outfitters as well as at least one representative from the Yukon Department of Environment. On the very few occasions that there have been complaints it has been demonstrated that this process is fair and does work. However, in order to enter into this process we do require both parties to agree that the results will be binding and that all matters discussed remain confidential and cannot be used in further actions.
Judging by your earlier reply you are unwilling to proceed with a formal hearing. Is this correct or do you want to formally proceed with the hearing?
Unfortunately, if you do not proceed with a formal hearing there is no way that the Yukon Outfitters’ Association is in a position to take any measures to help you resolve this issue or take any action against the outfitter.
Sincerely
Tim Mervyn
President, Yukon Outfitters Association
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: October 21, 2008 8:49 PM
To: Yukon Outfitters
Cc: 'Terry and Ruth Wilkinson'; [email protected]; 'Dickson Outfitters Ltd.'; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; 'Pierre.Germain'; [email protected]; 'Mervyn's Yukon Outfitting'; [email protected]; 'Joel N. Gosselin'
Subject: RE: Yukon Stone hunt
Hi Tim With more information I am open to the idea of going through the hearing process. What does a hearing entail? What are the timelines? Please explain the process and possibilities of the outcome.
In appreciation, JP Gosselin
Letter Received from YOA, Ethics Committee:
October 23, 2008
Dear Mr. Gosselin,
Thank you for your interest in learning more about our Ethics/Grievance Committee process.
So far our discussions have been shared with Yukon Government Tourism and Environment. The Yukon Outfitters’ Association would now like to correspond directly with you, rather than including outside organizations in Yukon Outfitters’ Association matters.
Our Hunter Grievance Procedures are listed below:
Preamble
The Yukon Outfitters Association is an Association of the Yukon Big Game Outfitters.
It has created a Hunter Grievance Committee to investigate any complaint made against a Yukon Big Game Outfitter and to make recommendations concerning the complaint.
The Grievance Committee has no legal authority to enforce its recommendations. Its decisions are persuasive only. The object of the Committee is to reconcile complaints expressed by hunters.
Procedure
Upon receiving a complaint from a hunter who has had communications and business dealings with a Yukon Big Game Outfitter the Grievance Committee shall follow the procedure set out below.
The Common law principles of Natural Justice shall be applied at all times to assure a fair hearing will occur.
The designated Chairman of the Grievance Committee shall communicate with the complainant within 14 days requesting all relevant facts, arrange a mutually agreed upon date for a hearing in Whitehorse, Yukon, inform the complainant he/she may appear with Council, be represented by Council or an agent, be represented by telephone, or by written statement only.
The Committee shall consist of the Chairman, the YOA Executive Director, the Department of Environment Director of Conservation Services, and one other Outfitter.
At the meeting the Complainant shall present his/her complaint or it will be read to the Committee by the YOA Executive Director, witnesses may be called.
The Outfitter being investigated shall present his/her positions. Witnesses may be called.
The Complainant and Outfitter shall have the right of rebuttal.
Upon hearing the evidence the Committee shall determine. As was stated earlier, the Ethics Committee Hearings are fair and have been demonstrated to work. However, we cannot presume to know the outcome of any hearing in advance. Again, if you would like to proceed with a formal hearing we require both parties to agree that the results will be binding and that all matters discussed remain confidential and will not be used in further action.
With respect to timelines, we would appreciate your decision regarding proceeding with this matter be communicated to the Ethics Committee Chair, Terry Wilkinson, by October 31, 2008. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Terry Wilkinson
YOA, Ethics Committee Chair
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 4, 2008 8:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: FW: Yukon Stone hunt
My wife and I just got back from holidays. We were unable to retrieve our messages while we were away. I would like to give your Ethics/Grievance process a try. Please let me know what you need from me. I would like to communicate by telephone at the hearing. JP Gosselin
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry and Ruth Wilkinson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 4, 2008 10:44 AM
To: Debonair Campground
Subject: Re: FW: Yukon Stone hunt
Dear Mr Gosselin, I will get started on the hearing. Will have to
coordinate a time so you and a representative if you wish, a
representative of Yukon Stone, the YOA Executive Director, the
Department of Environment Director, another outfitter and myself can be
there. Wednesday Dec 3rd would be a good time if you can make it. I will
check with the others. Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 5, 2008 9:48 AM
To: Terry and Ruth Wilkinson
Subject: RE: FW: Yukon Stone hunt
December 3 is OK with me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry and Ruth Wilkinson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 5, 2008 10:30 AM
To: Debonair Campground
Subject: Re: ****SPAM**** LOW * RE: FW: Yukon Stone hunt
Perfect, I will let everybody else know and confirm the date. Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry and Ruth Wilkinson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 23, 2008 7:57 PM
To: Debonair Campground
Subject: Re: Yukon Stone hunt
Dear Mr JP Gosselin,
I believe we have all the details set for Wed, Dec 3 at 1:00 Yukon
time which is I think 2 hours ahead of Manitoba. David Dickson will be
the other Yukon outfitter, Johanne Koser, the Executive Director of the
Yukon Outfitters Association, Tony Grabroski, the Director of Field
Services for the Department of Environment and Myself. Darwin and or Mat
Watson are planning to be there and I understand you will be by telephone.
Sincerely,
Terry Wilkinson
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: November 26, 2008 9:16 AM
To: Terry and Ruth Wilkinson
Subject: RE: Yukon Stone hunt
Will you be calling me on the day of the meeting?
Hearing was held on December 3, 2008
For the outcome of the hearing, visit http://yukonstonereviews.weebly.com/yoa-hearing-outcome.html
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