Hearing Report:
JP's Responses in Red
Received December 17, 2008
Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee, Re: Gosselin/Yukon Stone Hunt 2007Committee Members: Terry Wilkinson (Chair), David Dickson (YOA member), Tony Grabowski (Yukon Department of Environment), Johanne Koser (YOA Executive Director)
After reading correspondence and speaking with both Mr. J.P.Gosselin and Mr. Darwin Watson of Yukon Stone Outfitters the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee has made the following recommendations and comments for consideration.
Although Yukon Stone Outfitters provided Mr. Gosselin with a competent guide who has never stepped foot in Yukon prior to this hunt nor given an opportunity or time to scout prior to my arrival and the equipment necessary for his wilderness hunt, the equipment (boat motor, lantern, and Coleman stove) were in need of some repair or replacement. The YOA Ethics Committee recommends that Yukon Stone Outfitters conduct thorough pre-season checks of equipment to ensure that such difficulties experienced by Mr. Gosselin do not occur in the future. It is clear that Mr. Watson made an attempt to rectify the boat motor problem by flying new gas into the camp. The motor still did not run properly after Darwin tried to fix it on day 6. He left knowing full well the motor did not run properly. Subsequently, Mr. Watson did not hear from Mr. Gosselin’s guide and was therefore under the impression that the new gas had solved the problem and that the hunt was going well. Then does the problem lie with the guide hired by Mr. Watson? I actually had to talk my Guide into calling Darwin for a new motor, new gas and tools. Finally my Guide did, but only asked for a new motor. I insisted he call back to ask for gas and tools. These 2 calls were made on September 7. Darwin came on September 11 to make an attemp to fix the motor. His attempt failed. We never did get a new motor or tools.
As well, the YOA Ethics Committee recommends that Yukon Stone Outfitters make a greater effort to confirm client arrival dates in order to have the proper dates booked with a hotel. Mr. Watson had arranged for a hotel room for Mr. Gosselin, but was unaware of Mr. Gosselin’s early arrival schedule which led to confusion upon arrival in Whitehorse. The YSO website states "It is best to arrive and depart 2 days before and after the hunt if possible". Darwin was made aware of our arrival schedule long before we arrived. For the June 19 email stating our arrival date, visit http://www.ehuntingforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=674#674. He responded to this email on July 11 so we know he received it.
It is also recommended that Yukon Stone Outfitters use only the services of those booking agents with which they have a good working relationship. There is often miscommunication between outfitter, booking agent and client on both ends of the hunt when dealing with booking agents who do not know the outfit well enough to represent it fairly.
With respect to Mr. Gosselin's concerns, it is clear that there were a number of communication and equipment troubles that compiled to leave Mr. Gosselin with a negative impression of his Yukon Stone hunt before and after being unsuccessful in taking a moose on his trip. Mr. Gosselin stated that his main concerns were not the minor problems, but the lack of game in the area in which he was hunting and that the timing of his hunt may have been too early for the moose to be in rut. In the experience of the YOA Ethics Committee members the majority of Yukon rut moose hunts are booked anytime after September 7 when it can be expected that moose will go into rut. The local people in Whitehorse told us we were too early. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees when hunting in the wild and it appears that Mr. Gosselin's expectations of game populations on his Yukon hunt were unrealistic. When booking our trip we told Darwin we were available on any date and wanted the dates that would give us the best chance at the biggest bulls. Mr. Gosselin did see moose (no bulls) within the vicinity of the lake in which he was hunting on, including two trophy moose, one of which he took the opportunity to shoot at. Darwin plane-spotted 2 bull moose on the next lake and told us about them. 510 yards across a lake is hardly considered a good opportunity. This bull was on another lake a mile and a half from ours. After a lengthy discussion with the Guide, we mutually agreed this was most likely to be the only chance to shoot at a Bull. With the Guide's consent, I shot. YSO seem to agree it's an unproductive lake as they allegedly planned to remove the boat sometime after my hunt.
The YOA Ethics Committee understands that the costs related to taking a big game hunt in Yukon are considerable. In future, we would recommend that Mr. Gosselin do a bit more research, including checking references on the area and outfit that he intends to book with. Is this not the outfitter's job to know his area? Are you in agreement that had I done a check on Yukon Stone Outfitters, I would have never booked with them? Then why are they in the association if you know full well they are not a good outfitter? As well, it is advised that there be substantial direct communication between the client and the outfitter, both before and after a hunt. I did communicate with Darwin several times before the hunt (by phone as well as email). As mentioned, a booking agent is often unable to represent the outfit or the client in a knowledgeable fashion. Then why do outfitters use booking agents and does the association recommend not using them? This information should be on your website so potential hunters coming to Yukon can be aware of this.
It is unfortunate that this situation has been handled in a manner that has landed it in front of this Ethics Committee. We believe that had Mr. Gosselin approached Mr. Watson right after the hunt outlining his concerns rather than communicating through the agent, I believed that my booking agent, who is also an outfitter, would have been able to get through to YSO better than I was, after all he is the one who made the arrangements his brother and the internet site, Mr. Watson would have dealt reasonably and fairly with his concerns. I believe that with Darwin's attitude, he would not have dealt with this reasonably no matter who approached him. And what difference does it make who approached him first? As a tourist operator myself, treating tourists the way Darwin has with me is not commendable or good for Yukon's reputation. Rather, communication was poor between outfitter and client, and unfortunately damage has been done through internet postings. One of your recommendations was to research outfitters prior to booking.The internet postings is to warn others about my experience with Yukon Stone Outfitters. This way when someone researches Yukon Stone on the internet and read my website review, they will have the opportunity to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to go with this outfitter. I only wish I had this opportunity before I booked. Although the YOA Ethics Committee does not feel that Yukon Stone Outfitters owes a refund to Mr. Gosselin, we do ask that in the spirit of cooperation and reconciliation, Mr. Watson consider offering Mr. Gosselin a reduced rate return hunting trip. Yukon Stone Outfitters is a member in good standing of the Yukon Outfitters Association and we feel that this gesture of good will may go a long way to improve relations between all of the affected parties. Judging by Darwin's comments and the YOA's injustice in the result of this hearing, full compensation is all I'm willing to settle for at this time. I am in no way responsible for the outcome of this hunt. I am not convinced YSO have changed, have any remorse or ready to admit blame, nor do I trust them.
Sincerely,
Terry Wilkinson
Chair, Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee
Sincerely, JP Gosselin
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Below Email was sent to the Ethics Committe by JP Gosselin on February 10, 2009
To: Yukon Outfitters Association Ethics Committee
This email is in response to your Hearing Report. I am extremely angered and disappointed by your comments and suggestions. I understand it is not easy to judge your peers, but you have a responsibility to the public, hunters and fellow outfitters in Yukon. Outfitters who do not provide quality hunts does not deserve to stand amongst their peers who do. The fact the Ethics Committe inappropriately defends most of YSO's actions does not say much for the association or their members. Either the Committee did not have all the facts or there is corruption within the members. Had all committee members read my entire story on http://yukonstonereviews.weebly.com/ before the hearing?
YSO did not do nearly enough to prepare for my hunt. He sent an out-of-Province Guide who has never been to Yukon, camp was not set-up, equipment was not checked and no scouting was done prior to my arrival to ensure this area was productive. I lost at least one hunt day with assisting in setting up the camp, bringing the boat to the lake, the guide spending many hours trying to fix the motor, the motor never running properly or at all, and building a new ladder to get the gas out of the tree. The gas was up in a tree and all that was supplied to take it down was a broken ladder.
Why do Sheep Hunters get camp cooks when my guide was sent alone to set-up camp, cut firewood, cook, clean, get water, etc.
Please state your views on the following items that were not addressed by the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee
. Lack of Guide's knowledge of the area
. Camp not set-up
. Darwin's unprofessional comments:
Darwin's Comment: “A boat, a lake, a shoreline are not hard to hunt for experienced guides.”
My Response: We never saw ANY bulls on our lake.
Darwin's Comment on the boat motor: “However it did run at all times.”
My Response: Our motor did NOT run at all times and when it did, it ran extremely poorly. We had long periods of frustration, anger, quiet moments and stress. The guide requested a new motor on the first night. We never did get one.
Darwin's Comment: “The motor would only run at half speed however running at full speed on a 4 mile long lake really not required.”
My Response: When it ran, it ran at a little better than trolling speed. I was always afraid it wouldn't start at all and we'd have to paddle back to camp. This was not what I paid for.
Darwin's Comment on not being at the airport or having a room booked: “We did not receive confirmation of their travel plans prior to our departure for the bush in July, hence the booking on the 6th.”
My Response: Email dated June 19, 2007 10:01 AM gives our complete flight plans with arrival dates with a specific request to book our rooms.
Darwin's Comment on flying us in one day early: “The camp was set up and the client came in a day early. I apologize. I should have sent him in a day late.”
My Response: The camp was not completely set up. The guide had only been there a few hours before setting up. I helped him out once I got there. Contract states hunt to begin September 7, 2007. He flew us in at 7PM on September 6, 2007. Add 6 hours flight restriction (Yukon law), he had to fly me in on the 6th to honour his contract.
Darwin's Comment: “JP forgot to mention he missed a 60” bull.”
My Response: 510 yards across a lake is hardly considered a good opportunity. This bull was on another lake a mile and a half from ours.
Darwin's Comment: “Perhaps they forgot to mention that Joel turned down a trophy bull early in the hunt and killed a smaller bull with 2 days to go?”
My Response: Joel saw only 2 bulls all week; the first one was a small bull. His guide didn't see the antlers because the bull was behind a tree. There was never any question of shooting and he doesn't know at what point Darwin considered this a trophy moose. The second moose he saw, he shot. It was a 50.5 inch.
Darwin's Comment: “The pilot or manager are always available to call taxi or take the client downtown.”
My Response: Is that why we stood around in the cold for approximately 20 minutes looking down at our boots till finally the pilot said he'd give us a ride. If it was his job, someone should have told him.
Darwin's Comment: “Took them a new motor as soon as I received the call.”
My Response: Joel at McNeil Lake got a new motor. We did not receive any new motor at our lake. He came 4 days after my Guide phoned and tried unsuccessfully to fix the motor. He knew it wasn't working good and chose to do nothing more about it for the entire time I was there.
Darwin's Comment: “There were tools, obviously not the one the client wanted.”
My Response: The only tool we had at Moss Lake was the chainsaw spark plug wrench with a flat screw driver on the shaft.
Darwin's Comment: “Both clients had good opportunity at trophy animals. This is what I agreed to provide.”
My Response: He did NOT provide this.
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Response from the YOA President:
-----Original Message-----
From: Mervyn's Yukon Outfitting Sent: February 17, 2009 9:46 PM
To: 'Debonair Campground'
Subject: RE: Is the Yukon Outfitters Association able to handle Member Complaints without prejudice?
Dear Mr. Gosselin I am writing to acknowledge your February 9, 2009 e mail.
I am disappointed that you feel that you are not satisfied with the results of the Yukon Outfitters Ethics Committee. If you feel that there was a problem with the hearing or the result of the hearing, the Yukon Outfitters Association would have preferred that you contact us directly in order to attempt to resolve your concerns.
I would like to remind you that I suggested that one method of resolution of your concerns was to request a formal hearing with the Yukon Outfitters’ Association Ethics Committee. At that time I informed you that if you consented to this process, both parties must agree that the results will be binding and that all matters discussed shall remain confidential and cannot be used in further actions. Your verbal if not written agreement allowed the process to proceed.
Your continued public communication on this matter contradicts your agreement to keep all matters confidential. Should you continue to pursue this matter in a public format we will review with our solicitor options to recover any lost income due to your failure to keep your commitments in the process undertaken on your behalf.
Currently the members of the committee are away and unavailable for discussion with regard to your hearing. However when they do become available the Yukon Outfitters Association is prepared to discuss with them your concerns.
Sincerely
Tim Mervyn
President, Yukon Outfitters Association.
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My Response to the YOA President, Tim Mervyn:
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 18, 2009 4:36 PM
To: Mervyn's Yukon Outfitting
Subject: RE: Is the Yukon Outfitters Association able to handle Member Complaints without prejudice?
I have a legitimate complaint, nothing to hide and suffered a substantial financial loss. The Ethics Committee Hearing was merely another failed attempt to resolve this matter. Defending YSO was deplorable in my opinion. This is not only a matter of money, it is also a matter of moral principle and justice. The only way this will be resolved is YSO reimbursing the full cost of my hunt. Having YSO a member of YOA is detrimental to the association's reputation as well as the prestige of it's other members. Is the manner in which YSO operates the norm in Yukon? If it is, this explains the results of the Hearing Report.
See what others have said about my Yukon Hunt Experience: http://yukonstonereviews.weebly.com/comments.html. These are people who have read the details of my hunt and felt strongly enough to send in their remarks. On my website, I included the feedback received from YSO & YOA so readers can make an unbiased conclusion. I did not receive any comments in favour of YSO or YOA. If I had, I would have posted them.
If the Ethics Committee feel they acted in an ethical and fair manner, why do they not want their report with their perception posted on the website?
I look forward to hearing the Ethics Committee's responses to my comments on the Hearing Report as well as the issues that were not addressed.
Sincerely, JP Gosselin
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Email sent to Darwin:
-----Original Message-----
From: Debonair Campground [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 18, 2009 5:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Joel N. Gosselin; Jason Dyck; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Full Refund is in Order
Darwin As you know, I have a legitimate complaint. I will continue to take this further until I am compensated. You did not do nearly enough to prepare for my hunt. You sent an out-of-Province Guide who has never been to Yukon, camp was not set-up, equipment was not checked and no scouting was done prior to my arrival to ensure this area was productive. I lost at least one hunt day with assisting in setting up the camp, bringing the boat to the lake, the guide spending many hours trying to fix the motor, the motor never running properly or at all, and building a new ladder to get the gas out of the tree. The gas was up in a tree and all that was supplied to take it down was a broken ladder. There were several other problems with the hunt. For details, visit http://yukonstonereviews.weebly.com. To see how other people feel about my hunt, visit http://yukonstonereviews.weebly.com/comments.html. These are people who have read the details of my hunt and felt strongly enough to send in their remarks.
Admit you did not provide a sensible hunt and forward payment to:
JP Gosselin
Box 68
St. Malo, Manitoba
R0A 1T0
Sincerely, JP Gosselin
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